Gary Lucks Insists We Are the Power — And Shows Us How

On this episode of Bald Ambition, Mookie Spitz sits down with environmental attorney and activist Gary Lucks to tackle a question millions of frustrated Americans keep asking themselves: “What the hell am I actually supposed to do besides scream at the TV?” Drawing from his book We Are the Power, Gary argues that democracy survives only when ordinary people stop doomscrolling and start organizing.

Instead of vague “go vote” rhetoric, Gary offers concrete ways people can channel anxiety into action:

• Join grassroots groups like Indivisible or Activate America.
• Host Zoom fundraisers and local organizing events.
• Volunteer at farmers markets and community outreach tables.
• Phone bank, text bank, canvass, and register voters.
• Train as election observers and protect voting rights.
• Use apps like Five Calls and Goods Unite Us to make political engagement part of everyday life.

The conversation repeatedly returns to one core idea: activism goes beyond political strategy and amounts to psychological survival. Gary calls it “political therapy,” arguing that collective action beats isolated despair every time.

Then Mookie turns to accountability. While agreeing that voter suppression, gerrymandering, and disinformation are serious threats, Mookie argues Democrats have also sabotaged themselves with elitist messaging, cultural overreach, weak emotional connection, and a chronic inability to speak like normal human beings.

 He calls out:

• Ignoring working-class frustration.
• Overcomplicating simple issues with policy jargon.
• Mishandling immigration and crime messaging.
• Leaning too hard into divisive identity politics.
• Underestimating Trump’s ability to emotionally connect with voters.
• Forgetting that charisma and relatability matter as much as policy.

Gary largely agrees, admitting Democrats often sound “wonky” while Republicans dominate the emotional battlefield. The result is a lively, funny, occasionally brutal conversation about activism, media, polarization, voter psychology, and why Democrats need to stop assuming voters will automatically “do the right thing.”

Both agree: no savior is coming. If Americans want democracy to function, they have to participate in it themselves. Choosing a presidential candidate with charisma would also help, insists Mookie. Give them a listen!

The Guest

Gary Lucks, JD, CPEA, is a progressive author, activist, and environmental attorney who has spent four decades at the intersection of law, policy, and sustainability. He is the founder of Progressive Action East Bay and Resistance Action East Bay Indivisible, the latter of which is one of California's most active grassroots political networks. Lucks is also the author of You Are Not Alone: Your Roadmap to Effective Political Action and coauthor of California Environmental Law and Policy, an Environmental Law textbook used in law schools and universities (published by Solano Press and also available on Amazon). More at garylucks.com.

His Book

https://www.garylucks.com/book

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello and welcome to Vault Ambition. I'm your still very vault host, Mookie Spitz. And the one with all the ambition today is Mr. Gary Lux. Welcome to the podcast, Gary. Thanks for letting me be here. Good to meet you and be part of this. Good to meet you too. You are an environmental attorney by day, and you are also an activist, an organizer, and you have a book that I can't wait to talk to you about. We are the power. There you go. And as I understand it, it is a prescriptive guide, grassroots level, for organizing, getting your ass out to vote for these critical midterms. Share a few of your rallying cries and motivators because the Democrats have been wonderful at snapping defeat from the jaws of victory over and over again. And uh I personally would love the switcher rule. Let's let's change it up. It's healthy for democracy. And regardless which side you're on, we need to keep this frothy mix of democracy actively engaged. And now it's the Democrats' turn.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Yeah, well, I I would not have written this book if there was something else out there. And we all have a very clear understanding of what we're facing. The pundits are quite uh uh accurate in terms of their depth and detail, looking at what the problem is, why we're here. And we know it from every angle, it's saturated. But what we don't know is how people can engage, because you listen to a pundit on the news, and people say, We're in these dire straits, and it's up to you to go out and vote and make a difference in a rhetorical way. And then they leave us flat and without any depth or detail or direction or roadmap on where we go and how we get there. And so if someone had written that book, I would have gone on with my business. And so I would venture to guess, and there's some data out there that points to if you ask, you know, a hundred people leaving a No Kings protest what they'll do next, anecdotally, I would say 90 plus percent will post their pictures and call it good and feel like they've done their part. And ultimately, and I think there's some data I can uh confirm it's like 70 to 80 percent of people, I believe, empirically, just don't do anything more than that. And so, you know, Michelle Obama says go do something, or uh people say just go vote, um, and and so on, but it's rhetorical. So I wrote the book because I've been a lifelong activist, I've worked on every campaign since college. I'd rather not do that, but I'm convinced that it's everybody's civic duty, like jury duty. We have to be part of our democracy. Um, we've been so um uh so complacent for my entire life taking for granted our freedoms, uh free speech, uh due process, um, the right to vote uh in a fair, free and fair election, and so on. All of these freedoms that we've taken for granted are at risk, in my personal opinion, and we have to fight for them. And it's not like you spend one election cycle, it has to be a lifelong commitment. Um, you know, I in the book I write about uh sometimes I I get up on a weekend where I typically spend a couple hours each Saturday and Sunday handing out flyers, energizing and educating people and what they can do to make a difference. And sometimes I I think, God, you know, I just want to sleep. Or I'm at the farmer's market and I'm like, ah, I just I want to go home. I want to go out, go out and go for a hike. But then I I go back and I think about people, and I was just watching a documentary about the Civil War just uh last night, and 700,000 people lost their lives to deliver what we have that we take for granted, and they would have given anything for a two-hour shift on a farmer's market uh that versus going waking up that morning not knowing whether they'd survive to the next day. So the book is all about how people can be part of uh of history with this midterm election we're facing, but also be part of the solution and part of democracy and um weigh into an outcome that we can be proud of. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

You know who was great at getting out voters, especially African American men, minority voters in record numbers. That was Donald Trump in the last election. And he did it with bombast, hyperbole, theatrics, insults, performance art. It it motivated segments of the Democratic Party to flip in ways that was truly, we hear it all the time, unprecedented. We could do better, I would assume, as Democrats, getting that base activated to do another screw tape letter, kind of C.S. Lewis example. Carl Rove said that if you can activate your base, you can win elections. What's so hard about getting Democrats to go vote in the way that you mentioned, especially when facing challenges like the Trump administration 2.0, especially when states like Tennessee, Alabama, soon Missouri are gerrymandering with the Supreme Court's A-O-K about even using race ostensibly as a criteria, because now you need to substantiate that in the court of law. And all of these red states feel they've got carte blanche to just redraw their maps. And conversely, Virginia has thrown back the Democrats' attempt at this. What is going on? And how how does your book propose to turn this cycle of frustration around for the left?

SPEAKER_01 6:58

90 million people didn't show up in the 2024 election. Um, Donald Trump did not win by a majority, uh, he won by a plurality uh and didn't crest over 50%. And so if a fraction of those 9 million people showed up, it would have been a different outcome. And, you know, there are all kinds of reasons why Democrats don't show up. Um, part of it is because there are rules that depress and suppress the vote in uh certain demographics that make it more difficult as a burden, a barrier to overcome. Uh, there's also a lot of rhetoric uh with disinformation that uh is demoralizing. And part of the reason the MAGA movement grew up as it did, in my view, is that people felt, well, you know, the Democrats are no better than the Republicans, and it's a false, but in my view, it's a deep false equivalency. But ultimately, people, especially the blue-collar workers that uh and and and working class that were in the Democrat Party's uh column for the longest time, they're for all kinds of structural and other reasons, they're they're left behind. And despite Democrats' efforts, it doesn't happen in one uh election cycle. So there are all kinds of reasons why people sit it out. Um and you know, and as a general rule, uh the the demographic, at least historically, of the Democrats have been working class and middle class. And they tend to be more mobile, renting and moving from place to place and don't re-register. And because of these barriers that are placed in front of them, a lot of uh people who might otherwise be registered aren't able to vote. And then voter intimidation and and all kinds of reasons why people don't show up, but ultimately the way we overcome that is through organization um and uh strategy. And so the the Democratic Party was accused of political malpractice in the 2024 election, notwithstanding having been quite successful from 2018, 2020, 2023, 2025, losing the big uh presidential kahuna was demoralizing for people. And so that that's another factor. People are demoralized and feel like, oh, well, it just my efforts don't work despite reasons for success. And so one reason to energize and motivate people motivate people is to realize that the Democrats have won seven of the last nine presidential elections with a popular vote, but the electoral college got in the way for some. And so the Democrats actually have done quite well, but we don't feel it. So there's kind of this psychic uh barrier that is in place as well. And the Democratic Party has been accused of malpractice because, for different reasons, they did uh fail us in some ways, and there's new leadership under Ken Martin, uh, and there's a 50-state strategy which is designed not just to uh be competitive in the red districts um in the future, but working hard in the purple districts. So the it's an investment for the future. Um, and and so organization strategy, supporting the Democratic Party, and also I write in the book we we list 80 organizations, many that grew up in the recent uh election cycles that are focused on grassroots uh opportunities to be part of the democratic process. So, together with the Democratic Party, activate America, uh State the States Project, uh Flip the Vote, uh Sister District, all these organizations that came about, they can work in concert with the Democratic Party. So there's reason to be hopeful that we can succeed, but back to your original question, we need to be able to target those who are occasional voters, feel demoralized. And the only way that will happen is through raising money, supporting the Democratic Party, state and federal, uh, and supporting the uh other NGOs and the Senate and Congressional Committee's focus on winning. And we just have to be able to be behind that and give time, money, and effort and leverage your passion, resources, and relationships to be part of that solution.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Can you drill down a little bit? And then we could get into the nitty-gritty and perhaps get back to policy, but I really want to keep it practical because you bring up many specific recommendations. And I'm sure our listeners and viewers are like, I don't like what's going on, and we need to change it up, but I honestly don't know how. I might have gone to a King's rally every time I turn on the TV, I'm fuming to the point where I don't even want to watch the news anymore. Uh, I had hopes that with Biden things would would turn over and that Trump would be gone forever, a blip on history. And it's flipped to the point where there's been no more significant a figure in our lifetimes than than the Donald. And it's a nightmare. But I don't know what to do at this point. So, Gary, tell me what I can do. Help help me out here. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Well, I've been an activist every uh for every election cycle, and then you know, I've had opportunities to write policy papers for Governor Newsom for fine send when she ran for governor and led elected officials in the state legislature here in California where I live. So I'm a policy junkie, but I've learned uh about getting the vote out. And there's traditional opportunities of getting the vote out, which we can discuss. But in the book, I offer a menu of choices whether you live in a blue uh congressional district or a blue state, a purple part of the country, or a red part of the country. And there the most important thing anyone can do is commit some time. Um and think about how much time people worry and complain about the news, about their circumstance. Those minutes turn into hours, and hours turn into a lot of time. If people can just take a certain percentage of those hours on a weekly, monthly basis and say, I'm gonna commit to doing any one of the following things. So I'll start off. I'm in a blue, I'm in Oakland, California, a deep blue part of the blue state.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Orange County here. I'm all purple, I'm all purple.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

We're gonna get to let me start with blue and then we'll go to purple. So, okay, so there's a lot that people can do in the blue to help in the in the swingable uh purple uh battleground states. And so there's outsized time, money, and resources in a blue area that can be exported to Orange County or you know, North Carolina or somewhere else. And so what we can do is number one, join an organization. And I list 80 of them in the book. The most easy, the easiest one to consider joining would be indivisible. Um, I started an indivisible group 10 years ago. We're the Resistance Action East Bay Indivisible Group. We've grown to 1,200 members. Now, not all of them are active or they ebb and flow, but we have a core of our members. And each indivisible group, of which there are about 25, 2600 in the country, each one of them has their own personality, resources, complexion, areas of focus. And so what I write about is some of the areas of focus that we have. But join a group. Um, we started the first uh, we gave the first seed money to one of the other groups I highly recommend. It used to be called Flip the 14 in 2018. Um, we gave the first seed money to start them. They flipped seven of the 14 seats in California in 2018 from red to blue. And they've now grown to a nationwide organization that they call themselves Activate America. They work in the purple districts. You can join Activate America, and they they do grassroots shoe leather work of phone banking, text banking, postpartum, um, and and and and knocking on doors, right? But join a group is number one.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Oh, let me put a pin in it for a second because this is a big state change from uh losing your mind watching TV to channeling that energy, getting a personal catharsis and actually doing something. So these groups you mentioned, indivisible, these various organizations, I can find them online, I could offer my time, money, talents, and they'll plug me in to things that are feasible for me within my busy schedule. I'm free weekends, I'm free Wednesdays, I work the night shift, etc. And then they will partner with me to utilize me in any way that I can offer.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Absolutely, yeah. Um, like you know, anywhere from like we have teachers in our group, we have graphic artists in our group, we have lawyers in our group, everyone can play, we have musicians in our group. Um, we did this a year ago. We we uh connected with an earthscape artist who wanted invited us to uh volunteer on Ocean Beach in San Francisco to do uh uh earthscape art on um, and there was a couple football-sized field uh dimensions of a message on activating, energizing, and being part of the solution. So it doesn't matter whether you're an artist or a lawyer, there's so much you can do, or you have money or resources or connections with people, and so join and and the thing is there's a home for everybody, a lane for everybody. Um, so and what I coin this term political therapy. And so everyone's freaked out the existential impact is psychically impacting people, and so what we you can be alone in despair and complain and worry and be on the sidelines and defeat us, or you can be part of an organization where you come together with kindred spirits for common cause, and and people come away feeling they they built connections, friendship, and they feel like they're doing something and you sleep better at night, which is my own therapy, is why I do this, right? So joining a group, and and I list 80 of them in in in the book. Um, and then the most important, the next most important thing we can do in in uh order, quite frankly, is raise money, and I'll explain how we do it in a moment. Because the the Republican Party and the MAGA uh people have considerable financial advantage right now compared to uh the the the um Democrats. The MAGA PAC is as over$300 million. Uh the Republican Party is in the black with over$100 million. The Democratic Party, up until recently, hit is in the red. And so we're way behind. And you can't raise money at the end of the cycle, you have to raise money front-loaded in the beginning of the cycle. We're in the spring of 2026. So we just started this methodology I write about in the book called Parties for Democracy. We we started in 2020 working on raising money with a big concert. We had connections with Bonnie Ray. Uh, we were one degree separated from David Crosby. We're gonna have a big venue, raise about 150 to 200k net, and get people engaged and energized to work for Biden. And then COVID derailed the whole effort. And so, but instead of giving up, we morphed it into Zoom parties, which is something that seems like straightforward, but number one, it's not done nearly enough and it's not done well. And so we raised$450,000 in three months in the summer of 2020. And each host averages$10,000. So, you know, Mookie, you end up doing one of these parties. I'll work with you. Um, you just spend four to five hours of time together. We can curate a party. You invite your friends and family across the country, five o'clock on a Thursday at their desk. In one hour, um, we like on we can raise$20K for any one of these organizations or the Democratic Party or whomever or a combination of the both. We did a party a week ago, raised$12,000 to$15,000 with my friend um honoring their dad, who was a great activist who passed. Um, two weeks earlier, a friend of mine raised$24,000 an hour. And the average is 10. So if you have 10 friends, that's that's$100,000. We work with you. So my point is now's the time to commit to raising money. And if you do like a fundraiser in person, it's a lot of time and effort to organize logistics, RSVPs. But the party for democracy is a Zoom party that takes four or five hours mostly putting your email list together, sending out a couple of reminders, doing a run-of-show, and showing where the money goes with QR codes. And it's it it works. And we want to raise another half a million dollars this year, and that's just our indivisible group. Imagine if 2,500 indivisible groups each did a few parties, we talked about millions and millions of dollars. So join an organization, raise money early.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Both these methods turn personal anxiety into collective action. And along the way, you're actually networking with other human beings, you're meeting people, you're clubbing it up. Instead of just doing a rock climbing meetup or a hiking meetup or a biking meetup, you can do a meetup for the midterms. And you can do this in two ways, like you mentioned, join an organization. Become actively involved over time, or even throw a Zoom party to make some money.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Yeah, and people and it brings people together. You know, it I did one for my birthday, and you know, they're people I haven't seen for years, you know, on the East Coast. So friends and family enjoy it. When my friend honored his dad, they had all kinds of pictures. They invited friends and family, so they got family pictures. So and there was a Hollywood Squares type of connection after the formal show where people are like, Oh, how have you been reconnecting? So it, you know, the whole purpose of this entire effort has to be underpinned by joy. We cannot let them take joy away from us. Um, we have fun doing this. It's like I'd rather be doing other things. So we make great connections and we laugh and we're doing something meaningful. So there's a psychic benefit to doing this together with joy, and it can't it can't deprive us of that as we fight this most important fight.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

I love the socialized approach to it. I think that it's very holistic, it's very therapeutic. And uh, you know, in the in the military they say, quit your bitching and drop your linen, right? Which is uh, you know, it's a little bit vulgar, but it's like stop complaining and do something. Just go for it. It's such such a therapy, it's such a catharsis, it's a terrific release.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Well, and and the other, the third thing I'll say that is highly effective, um, and what I've shared with you so far can be done in blue, purple, and red districts. You can join a group if in Orange County, you can join a group in North Carolina, you can raise money anywhere. And in fact, if you're in a red area feeling demoralized and alone, you can reach out to your friends and family who are kindred spirits outside of your purple or blue or red area. So these are not descriptive in terms of what you do. And the third thing I'd share with you that we've done a lot of is we're at we first started out at um transit stops in the Bay Area, it's called the Bay Area Rapid Transit. When people would come off the trains, we'd hand them a flyer, and the flyer would be you know, one quarter of an eight and a half by eleven page with a QR code with a two-minute ask of where to give timer money. A lot of people are getting off the train, they're reading the paper, they're angry, they're upset, they're confused. We're there with a flyer. Like, this is how you can channel that. So we're kind of a trusted advisor. We build rapport relationships. And then after COVID, the the train uh ridership dropped. So we worked our way to farmers markets. We're in about six to seven farmers markets, and we want to grow it across the country. And every week we're there for a two-hour shift from like 10 to 12. And people at the farmers markets tend to be uh more engaged and more likely to be in the purple blue column. And so we've recruited a vast majority of our volunteers at the farmers market, and you're in in California, you know, we typically were focusing on purple districts for years. But when Prop 50 emerged as the uh antidote to Texas's effort to mid-cycle illegally uh uh gerrymander, we as Californians in the blue had to get engaged, and so we focus on registering voters at the farmers markets and educating them on why it really mattered. So the farmers market, whether you're in Orange County or elsewhere, is a great way to build community and build uh recruits and connect with people and educate them.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

If you have a little table and you sip in coffee and it's like you need to volunteer, prove me wrong, that kind of thing, or or what do you do? Walk around with with flyers or QR codes? How does that work?

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yeah, so we have these really portable mini ironing board size tables that fold up. So in one arm you've got the table, and the other arm you have a canvas bag. And in the bag we have like bumper stickers and buttons. I should have worn a button for you. Um, and then uh we have a sign-up sheet and sun tan lotion, um, and um we set up at the table and we've got our flyers, and I'll usually have a sign that that conveys the message of the week. So um, for example, um in California, we have this uh gubernatorial race coming up in the next month. There's lots of concern about the possibility of our our jungle primary producing two Republicans that would uh uh advance to the general election. And our message this last couple weeks has been don't vote early. Normally you want to vote early. This is not the time to vote early. Wait for the the um top two or three candidates to congeal and settle and then vote among them. So that's like the month-long message, and we'll shift to getting the vote out next, but we keep shifting our message, and so we hand out the flyers and people come up to us, and number one, they the vast majority are like so grateful and they thank us for being there because they appreciate what we're doing. We become trusted advisors, we recruit volunteers along the way, and it's gratifying, and it can be done in a purple, red, or blue district.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Excellent. So purple, red, or blue, join an organization, set up Zoom calls and be a fundraiser. And if you can, participate in grassroots campaigning, marketing, getting folks to sign up, getting folks to participate, getting folks to give some of their coin. And whenever you do any of this, you're getting away from freaking out at the at the screen and going out there into the world and meeting like-minded souls with a common purpose. And that's good good for the good for the heart and good for the mind.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

And what happens too is you know, as I said earlier, if you complain on average 10 hours a month, which is probably more for most of us, and you take two of those hours and you show up at a farmer's market or or give money or do a party for democracy Zoom call, that's two hours obviating the problem you're complaining about. So you're actually working towards a solution and assuaging your apprehension and concern along the way. Uh another couple things people can do, they can like Minnesota, Minnesotans were unbelievably inspiring. Uh, and you know, what they did in the bitter cold is is really heroic and patriotic. And they were constitutional observers. And there's all our group doesn't do this, but other groups, indivisible groups and others do. They're gearing up for what could happen in um November with disenfranchisement and intimidation at the polls, um, or another version of what happened with ICE or the National Guard in LA and in Minnesota. So other groups are focusing on training people to be ready when or if uh there's intimidation and uh uh the federal government acting illegally to prepare and and and be the observers uh to protect people's fourth and fifth amendment of due process and of and not you know uh avoiding illegal search and seizure. So that's another thing people can do. And lastly, uh I'll I'll share after the election uh or after November when we had these outsized double-digit victories uh in purple districts and special uh uh elections, we pivoted from uh getting the vote out to educating people on where their money goes with the companies that they support. In an or in what we call the Buy Blue campaign. And so the Buy Blue campaign uses an app called the Goods Unite Us app that emerged after the Citizens United case by two lawyers in the Midwest. And they basically wanted to educate people on where companies give their money, do they give it to the Republicans or Democrats or neutrally? And so it it's really empowering so you know you can vote with your dollars. So during the holiday season, after November, we wore blue and white Santa hats in the farmers market and we handed out uh flyers on the Goods Unite Us app, and we would and it's on you download it on your phone, and I would ask people if you're a coffee drinker, if you had a choice between Pete's coffee and Starbucks, which your preference. And most people picked, if I'm not mistaken, Pete's coffee, which is anecdotal evidence, right? And then I would go to the Goods Unitis app and say, where do you think Pete's gives their money to? And where do you think Starbucks gives their money? And the majority of people were stunned and really disappointed and enlightened at the same time when they found out that Pete's gave, I forget the number, but it was like over 65 to 70 percent went to Republicans based on Federal Election Commission data. And the and Starbucks gave um more money to Democrats. So that's knowledge is power, right? So post-election, we did bycots. You can buy supporting companies that align with your values.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Those are great. So just to summarize your two additional things that you can do. So the first, the first few were join an organization, do a Zoom fundraising call, and then get your ass out there at the farmers market to do some grassroots canvassing. And these other two happen pretty much concurrently with events. So, for example, be a witness, be an observer. It made a huge difference in Minnesota. When Americans complain and they complain with a voice, change does occur, even with this administration. And the other one is uh with this app and just being more self-aware, uh, be a conscientious consumer. Understand that the brand names that you participate in by want of being a consumer give to causes also. And they're not value neutral. There's humans in the boardrooms, they make big decisions, and the big decisions tend to delineate red versus blue. So be transparent about it and be conscientious in terms of funneling that money to the ideology, to the value system that you believe in.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Beautifully said. Yeah, well, well, well summarized. And I'll add two more. Uh, one is called the Five Calls app. The five calls app curates your message to your elected representatives. And there's strong evidence, empirically and otherwise, that supports the fact that our elected officials pay attention to phone calls. Um, and so but you know, people are intimidated by that. The five calls app curates different scripts and then would get you, depending on where your district is, to your representative. Now it's important to note that if you're unhappy with say um, you know, Mitch McConnell in Kentucky um with what he's doing, you're wasting your time if you're calling his office because they they correlate uh your area code or or your zip code with uh the origin of the call. So the five calls app takes all that guesswork out of it in terms of what to say, how to say it, with a menu of choices, and you get directly to your representative. So that's another thing to make your voice heard. Um and the last thing I'll share at the moment would be um election protection. This is going to be the most important election. We say that every two years, but there's there's no exception by far in this case. And if you're a paralegal, you know a paralegal, you are a lawyer, you know a lawyer, encourage them to do the training and show up in swing districts where elections might be contested because we need to protect the vote like we never have before.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

So these two ideas, just to cap it off, have to do with the old school pick up the phone and call your representative and express your opinion. Now, I know some people in the music business, and remember that app Shazam, where you you hear a song and you're not quite, you know, you're asking people, you know, at the bar or restaurant, who is that? Do you or what's what's so you hit the app and then you put it up in the air and then it hears it and then it pulls it up. Usually it connects to Spotify or whatever, and it's like, oh wow, it's the Supremes and it's the song I love. Those little gestures disproportionately influence what gets chosen to be played on the radio. Because the industry needs data. And even if it's a relatively small N, they rely on that as a success metric, a key performance indicator of popularity. It's like the old school Nielsen ratings, where 250 American households chose programming for 100 million people before the age of digital. And the Shazam app actually influences radio play. And if old school, you pick up the phone and you call your congressman and you annoy them that way, it actually does make a difference just because they're getting some information. We had a, you know, the you know, Mr. Congressman, Ms. Congresswoman, the phone's off the hook this week and they're not having it. Well, that's that's an input. That's information. So you think you might not make a difference, but you actually are. So that's very, very interesting and impactful.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

It moves the it moves the needle, and just like town halls will move the needle, even if you're if you're in a purple area or even a red area, um, one thing that people can do, which has been pioneered by indivisible and others, is to do an empty town hall. You know, if if the Republican congressperson is unwilling to have the courage to uh represent and face their voters and put that empty chair there and and call them out, right? That's something you can do in a red district, right? Um, and if you're in a red area or a blue area, consider traveling in October to a swing district, a purple district that might be a lot of people in Northern Cal uh will go to uh Reno, California. Southern Californians will go to Las Vegas. Um, I went to Tucson in in uh the fall of 2024, a swing state to see a college roommate, and several of my friends can uh uh showed up and and converged on my roommate, and uh we walked precincts for a couple of weekends. So consider taking election day off or consider traveling for at least one weekend um and having fun with your friends making a difference and quite frankly, having no regrets.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Yeah, go for it. Make your voice heard, and these little bits cumulatively in aggregate make a disproportionate amount of difference. That's usually the case.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

A lot of elections are tight. Like, you know, um just about an hour and a half drive in the Central Valley from where I live in the Bay Area. Um, Adam Gray, who ran for Congress, he won by less than 200 votes. Right? You know, there there are narrow victories, and it all adds up by turning out the occasional voters that we're targeting. It really doesn't feel like it. And and some people complain about oh, you know, I'm making phone calls and I only reach one out of 30 people. The data shows that it matters. Um, incrementally and collectively, it all matters. The most important uh get off the vote, turn out the vote activity is frankly knocking on doors. And some people are intimidated by that because they think, oh, I've got to persuade someone. It's not about persuasion, it it tamps down the apprehension, it's about targeting voters, educating them where their polling place is. There's gonna be lots of confusion out there. So, as trusted advisors knocking people on the door, that's an opportunity with a friend or someone that you're paired with to turn the vote out with a higher probability of an outcome versus a phone call. Um, and you're not having to persuade. And it's energizing for the most part. I mean, every once in a while, to be honest, you get someone who's unfriendly. And but that's what your partner is there for to just, you know, take a deep breath and move on.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

But to your point, when you knock on somebody's door, you're not gonna change their mind. What you're doing is is just activating voters who have an inclination and a belief system that aligns with yours, only circumstantially they're not actually going out there to pull the trigger. Back to Carl Rove. If you just get your base out there, you're gonna win.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Exactly. It's turning out your base. Right. And that that's how elections the elections are won or lost, for sure. You know, the other thing I in the book I talk about is disinformation and deep canvassing, which I mean, we need to win this midterm election to defend our democracy. Um, and it's gonna be years of rebuilding and strengthening our institutions, codifying what were norms that we took for granted. But ultimately, we need to um build connections and find our neighborly connections again. And over time, when we have our democracy intact, we need to come together and through civility um find common ground because uh my friend Bill Shireman, who wrote a book called Come uh In This Together, he points out that 70% of people believe on 90% of the issues. It's the 15% of the extreme left and the extreme right that will never agree, but 70% agree on um clean water, clean air, uh on um gun safety, um issues that should not be polarizing, but because of disinformation, people in their corner, confusion, and all kinds of reasons, we're polarized, and we need to disentangle that Gordian knot and find ways for us to come together. But that's a longer time horizon. Um, there's a a friend of mine who's who was the founder of Move On, uh Joan Blades and her husband. And Joan um uh started an organization called Living Room Conversations, and it's all about trying to get your uncle, who you don't talk to anymore, who's a red uh in the red column, uh, and find common ground and rebuild those relationships. And what we find is the more you lead with commonality about your kids, what you care about, your safety, you find out that we have a lot more in common. And then that uh tears down those barriers. So eventually we need to really invest in rebuilding, but today we have to fight to hold on to our democracy, especially between now and November.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Scott Galloway, the NYU professor, marketing guy, big mouth. Uh I I I love him and hate him at the same time, probably because he reminds me of me. He's uh the ultimate bloviator. But uh he's got a new podcast called Raging Moderates. And uh he hits home every point you just made, which is most folks are reasonable, they've got common sense, they've got lived experience, and they want their kids to be safe and happy, they want to do a good job, earn a decent income, and just things to move on and move on in a bipartisan way. And and just because of social media, especially because of social media, wedge issues, polarization, clickbait. Uh, if you want to make money, if you want to accrue power based on our media ecosystem, then it's that raucous 15% on either side that are churning this cauldron of polarization, much to our collective detriment. And it's uh it's a real shame. So, to your point, we need to get over that hump. To summarize your last point about if you know a paralegal, you know a lawyer, uh, the idea of election fraud runs deep for authoritarians the world over. If you can claim that free and fair elections are rigged, are tainted, then what you're really doing is you're throwing a Molotov cocktail into the bedrock of democracy itself. You are invalidating a democratic society so that you could superimpose tyranny on top of it. It's part of the playbook. And unfortunately, we've been experiencing a lot of that. Are elections here in America flawed? Well, nothing is perfect. But was there systemic fraud? That's been shown over and over again to be demonstrably. But conspiracy theories feed off of that contrarian nature. You can't throw evidence at people. You can't say that there were 63 court judgments, all of which ruled that the election was valid, because it merely reinforces that frenzy. So you need to be authoritative, you need to take action, and you need to rely on that foundation of expertise. And that's to your point about activating the legal system in a way that protects not this is the thing that drives me nuts. Goes to the gerrymandering, too. When we pull this shit, it's horrible for everybody. Because if you're taking rights away from me, eventually my people are gonna take rights away from you. And it's a downward spiral of abuse, corruption, and degradation of the principles that have made this country what it is. And it's a real shame right now.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

It is, and you know, with the Supreme Court has not done us any favors uh with uh overriding uh or emasculating the Voting Rights Act, and we're returning to Jim Crow South where uh you're disenfranchising people of color. I mean, Louisiana is 35% or so uh black, and they're trying to eliminate every all districts so there'll be no uh people of color. Um same thing with Alabama, Mississippi. And you know, disenfranchisement is just antithetical to what our democracy is about, and we're a multicultural, multiracial country, and we're gonna continue to be more so alive.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

No, we're not, because again, elements of that 50% right are boldly going where authoritarians have never gone before. There, the dog whistles are now megaphone shout-outs that we are a white Christian male heterosexual nation. Deal with it, and that is the game plan.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

So and Obama, you know, there was such advancement with President Obama, but the backlash is what we're facing.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Backlash is huge, especially with Obama's second term. That that's what really did it. That was the evolution of an eruption of the Tea Party during that phase, and and that's when the rage of those having to endure the white man's burden became became truly manifest. And you know, here we are. But that said, the Democrats need to put a mirror to themselves as well, and this has to do not only with policy, but even with what's done with all that money. And in this sense, I'd love to hear your thoughts about that because fundraising is a key element of your grassroots approach. And as we know, uh, you know, Kamala and Tim had a billion dollars and it didn't work. So I'm being a friendly contrarian here to make your point of view more acute with what's effective and what isn't when it comes to the Democrats retaking the White House. A lot of mistakes were made, and an obsession with Trump and everything MAGA, I think sometimes misses the point that the Democrats need this period of soul searching. And when we're doing this activism and we're really connecting with our fellows to take it back, as you say. I think when it happens, and it will happen because we tend to oscillate between one extreme and another, I would hope personally that some important lessons on the left have been learned.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Absolutely. Um, as I said earlier, I think there was a lot of soul searching. Uh Ken Martin, the new Democratic chair, has a long history of successful uh outcomes when he was a state chair. Um and yeah, there was lots of malpractice that took place in the Kamala Biden era. Um we can go into that. But you know, and money alone is not going to get us where we need to go for sure. Um, but you know, there's such a uh disparity. The vast majority of money that the Democrats raise are small volume, right? And because of Citizens United and PAX, the MAGA and Republicans have fewer donors but larger amounts.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Yeah, now AI, the techie bros have gone full MAGA. They were all at the inauguration. Zuck, Zuck, even Bezos, right? It's it's amazing. You go from the buying the Washington Posting to donating to the new ballroom. How's that for a for a backflip?

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Well, that means democracy will die in darkness, which is the mantra of the Washington Post. If we don't and you know, and and one thing I do want to share, I think people we have to support journalism. Um we you know we have to support newspapers uh because they are the watchdogs, right? For democracy will not succeed without uh facts and information. Um and you know, we have to give money uh not give money, but buy the guardian, by um your local newspaper, have investigative journalism supported. It's critical, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Get a subscription to the New York Times, even though they did that cataclysmic 30 best songwriters in America. That that was unforgivable. I almost unsubscribed from NYD. Seriously, I was like, you you didn't include Billy Joel.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

But you know, we we need to support, you know, the AP, um, NPR, um uh PBS News Hour. I mean, these are legitimate sources of news that no one can deny are objective and and truthful. Um New York Times is is is you know a storied newspaper. We have to support local and and other newspapers because democracy will die in darkness without it. I also want to share another great organization that I've come to really appreciate, and it's called the Hopium Chronicles.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

We can put links in the description below. So for the audio, whether you're on Spotify, iHeartRadio, we'll have links. And then if you're on YouTube and and seeing us, then uh we'll we'll have links in that description too for you.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Yeah, and what's great about Hopium, it's um curated by Simon Rosenberg, who used to be an ABC reporter, and he's uh he's he predicted in 2022 that there would not be a red wave in the elections, and he he um uh Nate Silver was not too happy with him because he basically was right. Um and so Simon's unbelievably capable as a policy uh thought leader and especially as a political thought leader. So he's he puts out a a uh Substack and um uh uh podcast every day. And it's the best thing out there, in my opinion. Um and uh yeah, so highly recommend that as a source of information as well. He synthesizes the news every day, and for people who are just de demoralized and have trouble listening to the news or watching reading the paper, get the hopium because what he'll do every morning is he'll take three hours in the morning, he'll take all the sources of news where he lives in DC, he'll synthesize it and package it, and he's never missed anything that I've as a news junkie caught as well. So I couldn't recommend that more highly as well.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

That's a great conduit, uh steady stream of data, insights, punditry. And he's he's the wonk who walks the walk, right? Because if you could be accurate in your predictions, like Nate Silver was, I mean, the the Obama election really just he he got he nailed it the down to the electoral count. Yeah, and he's been he's been riding on that fume since. I don't think he's doing the politics anymore. He branched out since, but uh Nate was the guy, and now this guy's your guy.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

So yeah, and and he he has great interviews, really like he's super quite well connected and uh just meaningful, enlightening information that I find quite useful.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Great. Maybe I'll try to get him on bald ambition. We can do a crossover.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

If you can get Simon, you you get that would be a real too.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

I got Lawrence Juber on the the guitar player for Paul McCartney. That was my my recent coup for podcasting. We had a wonderful hour of conversation, and he actually played Strawberry Fields for me.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

A little concert, so that was that was really fun. Amazing things can happen, folks. Go out there and canvas, do your Zoom fundraiser, join an organization, start a podcast. We're a DIY society. Do it yourself. All the tools are at our disposal. I got my my microphone here, I got my podcast app. And all you need to do is hit a link, send an email, pick up the phone, and get your ass off the couch where you're eating Cheetos and complaining about the Cheeto, and uh and go do something, which which is what I love about your perspective and your book. And I think that's the first step to this mirroring of the Democrats, which is um let's not take things for granted anymore, especially our democracy, and and give give give freedom of a shot with the caveat that I gotta go there a little bit. Uh secure border is a good thing, Democrats. It's really a a good thing in a reasonable, humane kind of way. So I'm just infusing this with just a little bit of if you make demands on the American population and you demand critical thinking and common sense, then to your exact point, Gary, let's be mindful of the 15% on the left that are creating 125% of the problems at the voting booth.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Well, and and what we find is another area where the Democrats, I think, have not done the best is we're not the best messengers, right? Um, we speak in wonky terms and policy jargon. We don't speak emotionally and straightforwardly, and it's not that hard, right? And so I think we're learning from that. I think there's an investment in a 24-7 uh pushback um to get the message out positively, and I think and hope we'll see more of that in the future. But yeah, and it's yeah, I think you know the the immigration issue. Um Trump cratered that um in the 11th hour of this summer 2024, where there would have been bipartisan agreement on strong border and more judges and so on.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

But yeah, but I'm I'm not letting you get off on that one. It uh Biden F that up, and uh and it's we've been dealing with that backlash as a country ever since.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

Well, no, but in 2024 there was bipartisan agreement.

SPEAKER_00 57:37

Um then the the the immigration problem had left the station already, and that ball was severely dropped before then. Trump you know leveraged it to an example of the course, as he does everything, but I think that's part of my point, though. That I started this with the the idea of the Democrats have this litany of self-inflicted wounds. For example, the crime issue. Okay, I was jumped in New York City by by Times Square. Wow, and when there was a lot of pushback on the left, there was this notion that crime has gone down. The pushback to Trump for bringing in the National Guard and securing the hell holes of Democrat urban reality, right? Was that crime is high and we need to bring in the military to calm it all down. Now that was clearly hyperbolic, overgeneralized, fascistic kind of behavior and messaging. But the Democrats coming back and saying, but crime is down, crime is not a problem. To me, this epitomized what's messed up about messaging, which is acknowledge the lived experience of Americans, stop telling Americans how it should or could be, based on an academic idea, based on some progressive concept, and empathize with the plight of the working people of this country. Remember, Bernie, for 30, I could say it on my podcast, I already got explicit on Apple. For 30 fucking years, Bernie Sanders has been saying the working people of this country. And it took all of these cataclysmic losses for the Democrats to go, you know, we should pay attention to the working people of this country. And to me, that's an endemic problem. And it goes back to what you were saying, which is this wonky messaging, this inability to make an emotional connection with Americans and overcomplicating the shit out of everything because the Democrats are so fragmented. It's an obsession with identity rather than finding a unified platform of three, four, five points that you keep hitting home, which is what, frankly, Trump and the MAGA base are great at. They're terrific at messaging.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

Right. They may not be honest about it, but they're true.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

They swap them in and out. It's like the Iran war. It's like regime change until it isn't. It's the nuclear program until it isn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Yeah. Democrats also have been too cautious and have been testing their messaging too much. They need to be more like Bernie and just speak the truth. People listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

Bernie. I I was hoping this is this is kind of funny, but it kind of hits this home. I thought Bernie Sanders would make the perfect vice presidential candidate with Donald Trump in 2016. Because they were hitting, they were hitting. It was the Nationalist Socialist Party. But in all seriousness, it epitomizes this schism that the Democrats, Democrats, get over yourselves, right? It's like this false dichotomy is so self-destructive.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

I agree. Yeah, and and this is in my view, anecdotally, we're not a center-right country. We're at least a center, maybe center-left country. But because of voter suppression, depression, and people staying on the sidelines, it's not there's no reflection of the complexion of where the country really is. And we have to get to organizing, getting people to show up, do the things I write about, but also the Democratic Party, which I do believe gets it, is uh aware of what needs to happen. And we have to message better uh and push back against this disinformation um industry that that that benefits from clicks and emotional anger that causes people to just propagate the lie and the canard and and the conspiracy theory. And it's it's it to me, it's a it's an absolute outrage, and and we we can't stand for it, and we have to do better.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

The word of the day is canard. I love that. That that is so that is so good. I feel lucky having Gary Lux on the podcast, and your message hits home loud and clear that you know, I'm sitting here, the Democrats need to do this, do that. That's all policy. But at the end of the day, it's gotta be butts in chairs, it's gotta be asses out there, it's gotta be canvassing, fundraising, joining organizations, getting active. And your awesome book, We Are the Power, offers a detailed and prescriptive guide. In summary, your action, Jackson, which is like stop, stop complaining, go do something. Your book is delightfully prescriptive with best practices. And the point that you started with, I think is the best point to end with, which is we live in deeply troubling psychological times. The rates of addiction, suicide, unhappiness among the American people have reduced our overall quality of life to the point that our median age has plummeted two, three years. And it's not just COVID. We're unhappy, we're frustrated, and we don't know what to do. And what your book does is we do know what to do, which is put your frustration into action, go out there and do something, meet people, affect change, you'll be better for it, and so will the whole country.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, you know, people are alone more so than they were decades ago. And by joining a group, you're like it's a civic engagement where you can come back together in community. So that's one way that's a win-win. And I think ultimately there's no cavalry that will protect us. There's no knight in shining armor. We keep wanting to have someone to protect us and get us through this. And what I I want to emphasize is no one's gonna save us. And the only people that will save us is ourselves. And and the reason why I wrote the book was to give people a menu of choices. Um and it can't be just this election cycle. Um, but there's 2028 that'll be right around the corner, and there's lots of rebuilding, so much damage has been done. We need to maintain that power to have the levers of power to rebuild and strengthen our democracy, and that means commitment not just to this cycle, but quite frankly, just like jury duty, it has to be a lifelong uh civic duty obligation uh that we all have to be part of. And what will happen is if we win the midterms, we'll get complacent and we'll think, okay, we can rest. We can't rest. And we have to pace ourselves. So we're living a lifelong marathon of civic duty. And the only way we navigate that is we work hard for six months in one way or another before an election, 18 months between the two-year cycle, we can step back and keep the keep the engine idling, but then we put it back into gear six months before. And that's how you navigate the marathon um that which is our life commitment, which it has to be, because otherwise what we take for granted will be gone.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:53

Amen to that. And I want to bring up one other great point that you made, which is be inclusive, listen. To people and talk to people. Don't shut people out. And that'll improve and enlighten you as a voter, as an activist, as someone who believes in this great country, that inclusivity. So if you got a funny uncle and you don't want to invite him to Thanksgiving, or you know, you dread when he might come around, or if you go over to his house and you got Fox News on all the all the screens, have a conversation and understand that we're all Americans. And again, to your point, most folks agree on most things, and we have been propagandized by that fringe 15% to hate each other and not listen to each other. And a lot of your activism has to do with exactly that knock on doors, talk to people, be inclusive, listen to the other side, and Democrats maybe even learn a few things that we can improve.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:12

Democracy depends on Democrats uh improving their game, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

And I want to bring one last point if you still have a couple minutes. Um who it's all if we've learned anything at all from the 10 years of Trump, think about it. He rolled down that escalator 10 years ago, right? Uh, and counting. Okay. Two two-term president, he would say three. It's it's all there's love him, hate him, whatever. He he's got his base and he knows his audience, and he's a personality. Okay, look at look at look at Arnold Schwarzenegger, the guy. You could see him being a bodybuilding champion because he had a perfectly symmetrical body and he was handsome, but then action movie star and governor. It's so don't don't judge folks. You know, you get to the chapa. He's the governor of our fine state of California. So don't judge the peoples when they make decisions about who they fall in love with and learn something, Democrats. There's gotta be woo, there's gotta be charisma. You need a personality to make an emotional connection with people, and that is the key motivator. We don't use our head, we use our heart. And Democrats, that I think is their biggest lesson, which is choose wisely when you go for that front man, front woman, front they. I'm rooting for the first transgender president. Um I wrote a science fiction short story about this like 25 years ago, and I'm rooting for the first transgender. I want a they president, you know that that'll make Mookie really happy because I think then we finally figured that one out, right? But I just go back to who? I mean, Pete Buttigieg, no one speaks better than Pete, okay, but does he have it? Uh Gavin Newsome, he's got great hair, he looks super presidential and he's very nimble in the debate. Is he the guy? Uh we could go through the list, and I don't I don't expect us to do that now, but I just want to convey this notion that if we've learned anything from Mr. the Donald, it's like we need to, it's not just about policy Democrats, it's not about freeing democracy. At the end of the day, the candidate has to be full of woo, likable, and attention getting. They need to dominate.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

And yeah, relatable, and and it comes down to emotionality. Like amygdala in our brain is what reacts to fear in the fight and flight, and you know, fox propaganda and all the right-wing media and disinformation wants to make us angry and fearful, and that moves behavior, right? Um, and so we have to be aware of that when we're being manipulated. Um, and number one, and number two, uh, you need to be able to emotionally connect and relate. And the candidates that will succeed, hopefully the democratic uh column, will be relatable and you can emotionally connect with them and not get lost in the wonky information that people people uh don't even pay attention to and their eyes glaze over after a while.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

Let's keep our fingers crossed. You know, I I I would hope that the Democrats set up the casting couch, and I think they're all already overdue. And I've had various guests to use digital technology to engender greater transparency when it comes to legislation and when it comes to voting. I had some great guests already, and that got me thinking, and I discussed this with them too. Why aren't we using digital technology to recruit fresh blood for the Democrats? We need new faces, we need new places. We need to change this up, folks.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:34

I I think the Democratic bench is strengthening, and is I think I think then it'll be a challenging primary for 2028, but I think there's a lot of strong candidates to select from who I think have what we're looking for. Like look at Pritzker, man. He's a commanding gravitas uh guy who uh you know making a face.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:01

I'm I was born and bred in Chicago. Ah, you're Midwestern. I Pritzker's got charisma, but um, if if Pritzker can become president, um I will I will wear a toupee.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

Well, but people like a father figure, like a strong, safe father figure. So my point is, I think yeah, whatever it takes to get good candidates, and we just have to vet vet uh so we end up with viable candidates and not get in our own way.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:32

Nothing against you, Princey. My last name is Spitz, Spitz, Prince. You know, I'm poor, you're rich. Nothing personal. I think you're great, but um, but you know, to my point, we we we just might need someone else to run. Thanks so much, Gary Lux. We really appreciate your time. Get get his book, folks. It's really good. And get your ass off the couch and doing stuff, you'll feel better about it. And uh, I am going to I'm gonna share. Usually I don't share my podcast with my friends. I when when I started podcasting, I'll be hey, look, and they got sick of it, and I got sick of it. But this this this podcast, I am gonna share personally with my network, especially the lefties, and go and go, I see you complaining on Facebook all the time. It's the the Trump memes and you know, end of democracy, and we're all screwed, and look at ice, and etc. etc. And I'm gonna blast them with your book because I think it's the ultimate salve for uh for troubled times. And I appreciate you doing what you do.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:46

You gotta you gotta channel that into something productive. And you can get the book um at your favorite bookstore, um, order it, or get it at Barnes Noble or Amazon or even an ebook right now, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:58

Ladies and gentlemen, and anyone in between, including the future president of the United States of America, uh, let's do three genders. I'm giving the Democrats three three genders, not 86 three. Thanks for listening. Like, comment, share, and uh thank you, Gary. This was a wonderful exchange, and I wish you the best of luck and keep doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:25

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:27

Viva la résistance.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:29

Take care. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:31

Thank you.